Phyllis Bennett (1 of 2)

Disclaimer: This interview was conducted in 1995 and concerns memories of 1930s life; as such there may be opinions expressed or words used that do not meet today's norms and expectations.

********************************************************

* Transcript ID: PB-95-222AT001

* CCINTB Transcript ID: 95-222-13a-ap

* Tapes: PB-95-222OT001, PB-95-222OT002

* CCINTB Tapes ID: T95-127, T95-128

* Length: 0:55:58

* Norwich, Norfolk 27 October 1995: Valentina Bold interviews Phyllis Bennett

* Transcribed by Joan Simpson/Standardised by Annette Kuhn

* PB=Phyllis Bennett, VB=Valentina Bold

* Notes: First interview of two with Phyllis Bennett; Sound Quality: Fair (tape PB-95-222OT002/T95-128 blank); this interview was originally transcribed in a phonetic manner; the original phonetic version can be accessed through our physical collection - please contact Lancaster University Library for details.

********************************************************

[Start of Tape One]

[Start of Side A]

[VB tape introduction; month of interview incorrectly stated as November]

VB: Don't think so at all, I think it's a lovely accent.

PB: People say I'm proper [inaudible]. [laughs]

VB: Oh. [laughs] Well I think it's a lovely voice.

PB: Yeah. So, you know, there's all different things and that and erm, I didn't know whether that would be interesting, you know, for people.

VB: Yes. Very much so.

PB: And erm, you know, I thought, oh, well I might as well write to Mr Peart, wasn't it?

VB: That's right.

PB: That's right, yeah. And I didn't hear from him so I thought, ooh, well I'll write again and wrote him another about it.

VB: Yeah.

PB: 'Cause it's all interesting really. I mean, like the big studios, I mean. Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer. I mean, it's gone now.

VB: Yes.

PB: It's all pulled down and that. It's a shame really.

VB: It is.

PB: Yes, it is. And eh, of course, then I heard from you.

VB: Yeah.

PB: So-- [laughs]

VB: Well Stephen Peart very kindly passed on the message to us.

PB: Oh, I see.

VB: Erm, so he was really doing us a favour--

PB: Yes.

VB: [To put?] a repeat in the papers.

PB: Yes, yes. Oh, I kept eh, three bits of evening paper what was there.

VB: O-oh! I'd like to see that if you've got them. That'd be great.

[pause 5 seconds]

VB: A-ah!

PB: I didn't know whether they would be interesting enough.

VB: Very much. I haven't seen these at all.

PB: Oh, well. Good job I kept them.

VB: Yeah. That's a nice cinema. The Carlton. Was that one that you went to?

PB: Eh, I've been to all of them.

VB: Yeah.

PB: That's up erm, near Bond, oh the big Lewis store. Only it has a bingo hall now.

VB: Mhm. It looks like a lovely place.

PB: Yeah. That was nice. Nice cinema that was.

VB: What was it like inside?

PB: Well, that was very decorative, you know. Like they all were in them days, weren't they? I mean there was, I don't know, I don't know whether you'd get that up in Glasgow. But there was a programme on the...What's today? Friday? Thursday? Could be Wednesday night. And that was on erm, [pause 2 seconds] from ten till eleven. And that's to do with films and that. Now that'll be on next Wednesday. Another part of it. And that was showing you all erm, different cinemas and different old films and that. Rudolph Valentino and that. And I thought to myself, yes I've seen that one, you know.

VB: [laughs]

PB: 'Son of the Sheik' and The Son of the Sheik [sic]. You know, and erm, Mister. Eh, one of the big directors in eh, Griffiths his name was [referring to 00:03:00D.W. Griffith]. And 'course he was, started all the film industry. And then eh, there was erm, like I said Irving Thalberg. He was what they called the wonder boy and he made marvellous films. I mean he was the production manager at Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer. See, it's all, it's all in there.

VB: Yeah.

PB: You know, and when he died, you know. At thirty-seven, that seemed, you know, I thought that was a great big producer gone because after that, it seemed as though that studio could never get another one like him.

VB: Mhm.

PB: You see. And then he married Norma Shearer, the film star. And he had two children. And, Irving and Catherine. But, it's strange really, because really 00:04:00when I was reading about, his autobio..., his book. That the children never really knew the father. If you know what I mean. I mean the boy was what, six when he died, so, and the little girl was, one, two, so she wouldn't have know him anyway.

VB: Mhm.

PB: But he didn't really, [pause 2 seconds] know him. There were too many of these big stars. I mean, they had nannies bring up the children. It's a shame really, isn't it? And I think he turned out to be rather a rebel. You see. Through all that. And then he settled down and he was a professor in the end. He studied and he turned out to be all right. And I said his father would have been proud of him. But then he died at fifty-seven. Strange really. And the girl she 00:05:00was really alone, you know, alone a lot. And she married twice and then she divorced, I suppose. And she opened a bookshop and she kept the [inaudible]. But, who she is, I mean. She might be gone now.

VB: Mhm.

PB: But, you know, when I look at all the albums, I think to myself, ooh, all them big stars gone. You know, the beautiful pictures and that--

VB: Mhm.

PB: What he produced. Marvellous. And now, the pictures are terrible, I think. Films are terrible. I really think they are. I mean, you get all these American films now, I mean. What do you get in them? I mean there's bad language for a 00:06:00start, aren't they? I mean you won't hear that on the screen. Well, I'm not old-fashioned. Far from it. But I don't think that's, that's necessary.

VB: Mhm.

PB: I mean years ago, they wouldn't allow it, would they?

VB: Mhm.

PB: I mean the only word you heard was in Gone with the Wind at the end. "I don't give a damn!" I mean, [laughs] that was eh, the equivalent of all that. [laughs]

VB: [laughs]

PB: But they did.

VB: Mhm.

PB: Yes. So, you know, it's really interesting the way things turned out. But he made, he did produce some wonderful pictures. Beautiful.

VB: Yes.

PB: I mean I got all the stories and all that sort of thing.

VB: I mean it sounds like you went to the pictures a lot.

PB: Oh, I used to go four times a week.

VB: Really!?

PB: Four times a week! When I was single. Yeah. I was always at the films. Couldn't stay away from them. I loved them. Yeah.

VB: 'Cause I remember you telling me about how you would go when you were courting and--

PB: Well, with--

VB: Your first boyfriend.

PB: With my first boyfriend, yeah. 'Cause I met him when I was seventeen. And eh, kept with him till I was thirty. And we'd been together too long. We weren't getting anywhere and, it just didn't, that's all. And eh, well I think his mother had a lot to do with it, you know. She was a very jealous woman. You know, wanted somebody [inaudible] better for her son.

VB: Mhm.

PB: And she put the foot in so I thought, right, finish it. And then, of course, I met my late husband when he come home from the war. And we worked at the same place. And that was how I married him.

VB: Ah, I see.

PB: Yeah. And eh, that was, eh. I was married when I... Yeah, 1946, I got married.

VB: Mhm.

PB: And 1949, 'course I had the boy. I had a son. And of course he got killed when he was twenty-three. In his car. And I never did have any more. And I'd have liked another one. But things didn't, they don't always work out the way you want, do they? In this life. But there you are. That's life, I suppose. [pause 2 seconds] Yeah. But erm, like I say, I don't go-- Well the last film I went to was years ago, [name?]. [laughs] Years and years ago. But I don't go now 'cause, you know, you get a lot of these teenagers in there and they're bored, if you want to enjoy a film, you can't. Because they're always shouting and that sort of thing. So, and then, like I say, the films don't interest me. What they make now.

VB: Yeah.

PB: O-oh. All them big muscle men. [laughs] You know, no sooner they meet, they're in bed with each other.

VB: [laughs]

PB: Oh. I think to myself, there they go again! [laughs] You know.

VB: I think you were spoilt a bit actually erm, growing up with the thirties films. Eh--

PB: Oh, yeah! I mean, you know, when you see the silent films, you know. And her playing on the piano and... [laughs] And erm, you know, the first 'Ben-Hur' they made was Ramon Novarro [referring to Ben-Hur: A Tale of the Christ]. I mean that was a silent film, weren't it. But that was marvellous. And then of course they remade it with Charlton Heston [referring to the 1959 version]. And eh, I went to see that and... 'Course it had been on the telly two or three times. Every time it's on, [laughs] I watch it again. And I think the most amazing scene was the chariot scene. Uhh! When they were going round the arena. Uhh! Them horses! They're beautiful horses! And that was great. I like films what have got a good story attached to them. Not.... [pause 2 seconds] Like The Ten Commandments. And Cleopatra.

VB: Ah.

PB: All them beautiful sets, you know. Like, as I say, massive--

VB: Yeah.

PB: In them days.

VB: Was that Claudette Colbert that was in Cleopatra?

PB: Well she was in one, weren't she [referring to 1934 version]?

VB: She was in one.

PB: And then Elizabeth Taylor was in one with Richard Burton [referring to 1963 version].

VB: Yeah.

PB: Eh, I don't know who else took it. I don't think anyone else took that part. They might have done in the old, silent one. But eh, and then, ooh the other. Something they had on there. Eh, The Fall of the Roman Empire. And, that was Alec Guinness in it. And I was looking at that and my brother and his wife come up so 'course I had to have it off, so. [laughs]

VB: [laughs]

PB: I hate that, you know, when I'm getting interested. And I was thinking then, gaw, the sets they had in that day! You know, it's really marvellous. And then, really, America dominated the film industry really, didn't they? I mean, well we 00:11:00didn't have the money. Britain didn't have the money, did they? I mean, all right, they made Gandhi but that, then that wasn't made in England, was it? That was a good film. Although I never went to see it. Because I'm not very keen on Indian films. They all erm. Ooh, I, I, they [shook?] me up when I see all them Indians go up and about. Oh, and I think to myself, why ever do they do that? [laughs] You know. And then they're eating with their fingers and then they get all... And then I thought to myself, well you can't wonder how they're ill all the time, can you? I mean eh, they're terrible, really.

VB: I mean, was that? It sounds as if from what you're saying that the films you liked were the ones that were sort of, glamorous and eh, nice to look at.

PB: We-ell, yeah. Well like erm, erm, The Great Ziegfeld.

VB: Mhm.

PB: I mean, look at the beautiful sets in that. And all the Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers films.

VB: Mhm.

PB: I mean. All right. I mean, he really couldn't act, could he?

VB: [laughs]

PB: Not in a way.

VB: He didn't have to, really. [laughs]

PB: I mean, it's his dancing what kept him on the screen. And all the musicals. The Jazz Singer, the first talkie. That was on the Wednesday night. How they done that and, you know. 'Cause every, anything to do with films, I always have it on because I think to myself, well, it's interesting to know all about it.

VB: Were you buying the 'Picturegoer' regularly then when you were--

PB: Yeah. 'Picture Show' [sic] and 'Picture Show'. And yeah, and that. They put all the, all the erm, erm, supplements in, you know.

VB: Mhm.

PB: With 'em.

VB: Is this one of the--

PB: Oh, yeah. I used to buy them. Yeah.

VB: Clark Gable.

PB: Oh, he was my favourite, he was.

VB: O-hhh! What was it about Clark Gable that--

PB: Erm, well, I mean, as an actor yes. But as a man, erm, he was, he liked the women too much and that. I mean, he was always after someone, wasn't he? And blonde. And he never went with anyone, [pause 2 seconds] dark-haired, you know.

VB: Is that right?

PB: You never hardly saw him with eh, a dark-haired person.

VB: Mhm.

PB: He didn't. I once read about where he said he didn't eh, think they looked clean enough.

VB: Oh! [laughs]

PB: Yeah. So I thought to myself, you know, he was erm. But as an actor, yeah. I think he appealed to all women, as a, an ac-, as a man, you know, as an ac-. But of course, I mean when you first saw him. I saw him in, the first picture I saw 00:14:00him in was A Free Soul. And he was a gangster in that. And he looked a gangster. He needed, and I thought to myself, I don't know. I don't think you're going to last. But of course he did, didn't he? You see, he lasted all them years. November the first was when he died. And I thought to myself, you need a bit more polish [mate?] on you. [laughs]

VB: [laughs]

PB: You know. And as he grew older, so I think he matured better.

VB: Yes.

PB: As an actor and a man.

VB: That's interesting. Do you think he was better towards the end of the thirties, forties?

PB: Yes, yes. As to what he was at the beginning.

VB: Yeah.

PB: Yeah. Very much so, I thought.

VB: Yeah.

PB: And of course, he married five times, didn't he?

VB: Mhm.

PB: And the last one. He eh, had a son. He had a son.

VB: Did he?

PB: Oh, yes. I think then. In a, in a... [pause 3 seconds] Where do I look?

VB: Oh, I see. Yes.

PB: Here he be. [pause 3 seconds; looking at cutting] That was his son.

VB: He's a nice looking baby, isn't he?

PB: Yeah, I suppose he's getting, he must be getting on now, you know. [I don't know?] his age. Ooh, ah. He was born March.

VB: Mhm.

PB: Born four months after he [Gable] died, see.

VB: Mhm.

PB: Mhm.

VB: It's great seeing these cuttings you've got.

PB: Yeah.

VB: Oh, Shirley Temple.

PB: Yeah. She was lovely, weren't she?

VB: Mhm. [pause 3 seconds] And Clark as well.

PB: See, look how he altered there.

VB: Oh yes!

PB: You see he, he eh, I thought, you know. He got really, [pause 2 seconds] old really, didn't he? And of course when he married Clark erm, Carole Lombard, of 00:16:00course she got killed, didn't she? In eh, the war doing war bonds [US bonds sold to support World War One].

VB: Mhm.

PB: In a plane crash. And then he joined up.

VB: Mhm.

PB: Into the Army and he come over to England. And he was an air gunner. And he came out as a Major.

VB: Mhm.

PB: But the last picture he made with Marilyn Monroe. And that was called The Misfits.

VB: Mhm.

PB: And I went to see it, but oh, I didn't enjoy that picture. That was a really terrible picture. And he looked about eighty!

VB: Mhm.

PB: And of course, after that he died. He had a heart attack and he died. She died. It was a tragic picture. Two or three of them, actors and actresses died in that picture, after they'd made it.

VB: Mhm.

PB: Strange, really. That he looked his age then.

VB: Yeah. Mhm.

PB: So, you know, it's really great, really. And eh, well I mean, like Bette Davis. I mean, she was a good actress. I liked her. And erm, what is, what's the other one's name? Gregory Peck, he was good, wasn't he? And George Brent. [pause 3 seconds] All the old ones. Lewis Stone, Brent Morgan, Ralph Morgan. Got them all. [pause 2 seconds] Ye-es.

VB: I mean, you mentioned Bette Davis there for instance. What was it about that her that you liked?

PB: Erm, well I liked her acting. As an actress, I thought she was a very good actress. I mean she made some really wonderful films. Eh, but I mean, as you say, you can only go by what they act like, can't you? I mean in their private 00:18:00life, I mean, it's different altogether, isn't it?

VB: Mhm.

PB: I mean, entirely different.

VB: Mhm.

PB: I mean eh, I don't know. She was really great.

VB: Yeah.

PB: You couldn't, when you see her acting, you know, they couldn't get over her. [laughs]

VB: [laughs]

PB: She wanted anyone, boy she was gonna get him! [laughs]

VB: Mhm.

PB: Ye-eah.

VB: Did you like the sort of roles she played then?

PB: Yes. Yes, they were good roles. Jezebel. Oh, that was a good film and erm, All About Eve. I mean, that was a very good film.

VB: Mhm.

PB: Yeah. And eh, what was the other one? Oh, there was several, wasn't it, what she made. Eh. [pause 2 seconds] Was it Dark Victory? Dark Victory, eh, with George Brent, wasn't it? And then she acted another one with erm, [pause 2 seconds], Paul Henreid. Yeah. And I tell you another one. I liked Humphrey Bogart.

VB: O-oh.

PB: Yeah. And eh, Lauren Bacall. Yeah. I think they were great together and then, [laughs] old Katharine Hepburn in The African Queen.

VB: Oh, wonderful.

PB: [laughs] Yes. "Charlie!" [laughs] Oh! When she poured all his gin in the river! I thought to myself, o-oh! Old grumpy [drawers'll?] be drunk.

VB: [laughs]

PB: [still laughing] Yeah. Oh, right. He was good, wasn't he? Really. Yeah, I liked him. Yeah. He was so much, you know.

VB: Oh, yes. I've got Robert Montgomery here as well.

PB: Yeah.

VB: Was he one of your favourites?

PB: Eh, he was all right. But I mean, I eh, I liked him but, like I say, the only one what I really did like was Clark Gable and--

VB: Yes.

PB: For acting, I mean, as I say. And eh, Joan Crawford. D'you remember her? She was a good actress but she was not kind. She was not eh, not my kind of woman. I thought she was a very hard woman to look at. Her face was very hard, wasn't it?

VB: Mhm.

PB: And of course, her and Norma Shearer, you know, never got on.

VB: Is that right?

PB: Oh, yes. They hated one another. Because Joan Crawford always said she had the best roles. Which, 'course, she did, didn't she? You know.

VB: Mhm.

PB: Oh, yeah. They, they didn't like each other at all.

VB: 'Cause I'd heard she didn't get on well with Bette Davis but I didn't know about--

PB: Yeah, yeah.

VB: Norma Shearer.

PB: Yes. Yeah. And of course, Norma Shearer retired in 1942. From the studio because like I said, it all altered when he died and she couldn't get the parts.

VB: Mhm.

PB: See.

VB: Mhm.

PB: And of course the other one was really pleased then. [laughs]

VB: [laughs]

PB: You see there's always that catch. Even in them days.

VB: Yeah.

PB: Oh, yes. Yes. Yeah, yeah. And Ava Gardner.

VB: Ah.

PB: I mean she was another one, weren't she? She's really lovely, I thought. And Joan, and Judy Garland. But you know, erm, they couldn't do what they wanted, you know, them, them, all them lot at the studio. I mean, that Louis B. Mayer, I mean, he had them, he was lord. I mean, say they fell for a baby, they weren't allowed to have it, you know. They had to have an abortion. Dreadful, really, isn't it?

VB: So they kept a tight rein on their private lives.

PB: O-oh, yeah, they did! I mean, like Clark Gable, when he... He was married to a socialite. Her name was Rita Langham. He wanted to get divorced from her. But that studio wouldn't let him. Oh, no. That was a couple of years before he got eh, rid of her.

VB: Mhm.

PB: And then he had to pay a helluva lot of money out. And then of course, he married Carole Lombard.

VB: Mhm.

PB: And that didn't. That lasted I think, until, of course she got killed.

VB: Mhm.

PB: And then he met Lady Sylvia Ashley. Lord Ashley's wife. He married her. That didn't last. See, he wanted someone to take Carole Lombard's place. But no-one can do that. And so he divorced her, and he got on the last one, and 'course he died, [pause 2 seconds] very. So I, erm-- That was a shame really. I mean, he'd have liked to have seen, you know, had a kiddie, really. But eh, there you are. It weren't to be, was it?

VB: Mhm. I mean these books look great as well that you've got here. The life story of Clark Gable and George Carpozi and erm 'Dear Mr G'. Jean Garceau.

PB: The King of Hollywood. He was named the King.

VB: Aw. This one looks good actually. I like ones where they've got lots of illustrations in them.

PB: Yeah.

VB: Aw. Ah, here's The Misfits that you mentioned.

PB: Yeah.

VB: Spencer Tracy and Robert Taylor in mourning--

PB: Yeah.

VB: At the funeral.

PB: He was. Yeah, they were all there, yeah, yeah. Erm, Spencer Tracy was another one, wasn't he? He was a good actor. He acted a lot with Clark Gable, you know. Yeah, yeah. In erm, [pause 2 seconds] the oil picture. What was that? [pause 2 seconds] Mogambo That was another one, wasn't it? An African picture. 'Cause he'd remade that twice, hadn't he?

VB: Mhm.

PB: First time, that was with Jean Harlow.

VB: A-ah.

PB: The platinum blonde. And that was called Red Dust then. And then when he made it with Jean, erm, Ava Gardner, didn't he?

VB: Mhm.

PB: And Grace Kelly-- Was in it. And that was named Mogambo then.

VB: Yeah. What about Robert Taylor? Was he someone that you liked?

PB: Yeah, I liked him as well. Yeah. He made some decent films. Yeah.

VB: Ah, here's the one you just mentioned, Mogambo.

PB: Yeah.

[pause 8 seconds]

VB: Hedy Lamarr. 1940.

PB: Oh, yeah. That was in Boom Town.

VB: Ah.

PB: The oil picture. Yeah.

VB: And here's Ava Gardner.

PB: Yeah.

VB: Jean Harlow.

PB: Yeah.

VB: Was she someone you liked or--?

PB: Yeah, she was, she was eh. 'Course she died very young, you know. Didn't she?

VB: Mhm.

PB: Yeah.

VB: It's an amazing dress that, [laughs] she's got on.

PB: Oh, I don't know how they got her into that.

VB: I know. Looks like it's been [inaudible].

PB: She was with Clark Gable with China Seas.

VB: Ah.

PB: Now that was on the telly there about four weeks ago.

VB: I mean was that part of the attraction of the pictures? The dresses and the--

PB: Eh, yeah. I think it was. I mean you get eh, you know, the clothes what they wore, I mean, eh, they all had to be made at that studio. I mean, that was, I mean, when you think about it... [pause 7 seconds] I have to be careful with this lot.

VB: Very fragile.

PB: Yeah. Marie Antoinette. Jane. That's Joan Crawford.

VB: Oh, Joan Crawford!

PB: Yeah.

VB: Yes. Ah. I didn't know he made a film with Jeanette MacDonald.

PB: Oh, yeah. That would have been San Francisco when the big earthquake was in it.

VB: Mhm.

PB: You see, [pause 3 seconds] that's all the old--

VB: Oh, yes.

PB: That's really first starters, you see.

VB: Yeah.

PB: They had a little tiny studio. The-- Mabel, [Normand, Newman?]. She had a tragic life, so they said, do you know. [pause 3 seconds] [inaudible; Roses?].

VB: Mhm.

PB: [laughs] Pauline Frederick. See that, it [don't?] that start right from 1915 to that date.

VB: Yeah. 1936.

PB: Yeah.

VB: [inaudible].

PB: You see. Can you read, oh I don't suppose you can. That's Louis B. Mayer.

VB: Ah, yes.

PB: See.

VB: Yeah.

PB: And you never. When you think about it. When you see Norma Shearer. That's her hair.

VB: It's amazing.

PB: And that's the Ben-Hur galley. Yeah.

VB: The Prisoner of Zenda as well.

PB: [inaudible]. That was, yeah.

VB: 'Cause that was remade with Ronald Colman, wasn't it?

PB: Yeah. And then, well it'd been made with Douglas Fairbanks Jr too, hadn't it?

VB: Yes.

PB: Yes. That's Greta Garbo when she came over, look.

VB: Oh, that's amazing.

PB: Yeah. Oh that's Rudolph Valentino.

VB: Yeah.

PB: And that's Norma Shearer when she was getting better.

VB: More like how I can remember her.

PB: Yeah. Until she got groomed. Dick [inaudible] and the Bennett sisters?]

VB: Ah, yes. Oh Flesh and the Devil. Oh, that's--

PB: Oh yeah.

VB: [I've seen that one?].

PB: That was with erm, John Gilbert.

VB: John Gilbert.

PB: And 'course she, she eh, was very fond of him, wasn't she?

VB: Aw. Oh, the Barrymores.

PB: There's the two Barrymore brothers.

VB: Did you like them?

PB: Yeah. Lion, eh Lionel Barrymore got him his job down at Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer.

VB: A-ah.

PB: Yeah. He gave him his first eh, screen test like they have to, don't they?

VB: Yeah. Oh, Rose Marie as well.

PB: Yeah.

VB: Erm, did you like Jeanette MacDonald?

PB: Did I like her?

VB: Yeah.

PB: Yeah. I thought she was a marvellous singer, weren't she?

VB: Mhm.

PB: I mean eh, yeah, she made some nice singing pictures. [pause 2 seconds] That's the old Metro studio. That is. Until they remade it, you see.

VB: Ah.

PB: And that's the, that was the largest glass stage in the world.

VB: Oh!

PB: And that was massive. And that's the entrance to it. [pause 4 seconds] Ruth Chatterton. She was [inaudible]. Yeah.

VB: Oh, Broadway Melody.

PB: Yeah. Yeah.

VB: Did you like the dancing pictures?

PB: Yeah, oh yeah.

[End of Side A]

[Start of Side B]

PB: Beery [referring to Wallace Beery].

VB: Yeah.

PB: [laughs] And old Marie Dressler. [laughs]

VB: O-oh.

PB: She used to make me laugh, she did. [pause 3 seconds] That's

Queen Christina there, isn't it?

VB: A-ah.

PB: Yeah. There's the Grand Hotel, when they made that.

VB: With Joan Crawford.

PB: Yeah. With Joan Crawford, Lionel Barrymore and John Barrymore.

VB: She looks erm very young there, doesn't she? She's--

PB: Ye-ah.

VB: Sort of rounder faced than I--

PB: Yeah.

VB: Pictured her.

PB: Mhm. That was, that was a good picture, that.

VB: Queen Christina. Yeah.

PB: Yeah. And there's Greta Garbo there in eh--

VB: Mata Hari.

PB: In the spy picture, when she was a spy.

VB: Yeah.

PB: That's Smilin' Through. That was good. Leslie Howard. Can you remember him? He got killed, didn't he, during the war?

VB: Mhm.

PB: [flicks through pages] Oh, what they looked like then.

VB: That's amazing.

PB: And to what they look like now, look.

VB: Ye-es.

PB: That's Norma Shearer. [laughs] You'd never picture her.

VB: You wouldn't recognise her, no.

PB: No.

VB: Jean Harlow as well before she...

PB: Yeah. And look at her there, look.

VB: A-ah. Like a different person.

PB: Yeah. That's Joan Crawford, look.

VB: A-ah.

PB: I didn't like her. I liked her acting but as a woman, no. That's one of the sets of eh, The Great Ziegfeld.

VB: Ah, that's amazing!

PB: Yeah. I mean they look-- real don't they? And that picture was The Good Earth.

VB: Mhm.

PB: And that was the only, only picture where they put Irving Thalberg's name on. Production. That was the only film, eh picture they done. Out of respect when he died.

VB: Mhm.

PB: The Great Ziegfeld. That was another genius. He come to the Metro studio.

VB: Yeah. How do you pronounce that? Marcus.

PB: Loo, Looer something [referring to Marcus Loew].

VB: Yeah.

PB: But he died very young.

VB: Mhm.

PB: And that one. He was the president.

VB: Nicholas Schenk.

PB: All practically all Jewish weren't they?

VB: Yeah.

PB: See that was, that was erm, Irving Thalberg and Norma Shearer.

VB: Yeah.

PB: That was Louis B Mayer. And of course they had a brother. Douglas [Shearer] was sound recording director. At the studio. And a sister. Athole [Shearer] married Howard Hawks.

VB: Mhm.

PB: The erm, recluse, wasn't he? In the end. But erm, yeah, that was a shame. I think, you know, that was the last picture what was [of him?].

VB: Yeah.

PB: Yeah.

VB: Tragic really.

PB: Yeah. He died of erm, pneumonia. 'Cause he had rheumatic fever as a child, you see.

VB: Mhm.

PB: And he never got over that properly. And he never had no children so all his children were the studio.

VB: Ye-ep.

PB: Yeah, it was really, it was really interesting, really.

VB: It is.

PB: Yeah.

VB: I mean, did you talk a lot about the pictures when you were going in the thirties? Were you talking about them with your friends and--

PB: Oh, yeah. I mean we used to go to-- I went with [talkin?] 'cause I used to go with my school friends, you know. And that sort of thing. And I always remember, my own, my sister. Eh, she went to see 'Sonny', eh, The Jazz Singer. And that was a Saturday and I didn't go 'cause I wasn't old enough. And all day Sunday she cried. [laughs]

VB: [laughs]

PB: Because the song coming, 'Sonny Boy'. She cried all day. Then I cried. That made me cry. [laughs]

VB: [laughs]

PB: Although I never seen it. But you know, I always remember that. A-ah, I thought to myself. [sniffs] So she upset me when she [laughs] cried.

VB: Aw.

PB: Yeah. The Jazz Singer. That was a bit of a sad picture, I suppose.

VB: Mhm.

PB: I dunno. When he was singing and that. You know, I always remember that. I can see her now, [laughing] sitting on the sofa, crying her eyes out! She couldn't eat no dinner! [laughs]

VB: Aw.

PB: Because she was so upset! You know, 'cause of losing this little boy. 'Cause he died, you see. Aw dear. [sniffs]

VB: Aw.

PB: I thought to myself, oh, I'm not going to see that picture! [laughs]

VB: Are you like me? I mean I tend to have a cry sometimes at films that are. Do you do that or are you more--?

PB: Erm, no, I never did.

VB: Yeah.

PB: I'm talking about when I was young.

VB: Yeah. Yeah.

PB: But, e-erm, I think, I suppose losing Malcolm and losing Eric and I sometimes sit here and I [inaudible], you know, with tears trickling down.

VB: Mhm.

PB: No, I never did.

VB: Never did then.

PB: No.

VB: Yeah.

PB: No. No my sister was the one for always crying. But me, no.

VB: Mhm.

PB: But now, I can. Especially on your own. I think some things do upset you and bring back memories.

VB: Yes.

PB: Which they do.

VB: Yeah.

PB: But eh, you know I. And like that cinema in, in erm, Magdalen Street. We used to have a cinema. That was called The Cinema [probably referring to the Cinema Palace]. That all us kids used to queue up to get in there about two o'clock. And if you didn't have enough money to pay, I think it was a penny or tuppence to get in in them days--

VB: Mhm.

PB: You could take a jam jar or a rabbit skin.

VB: A rabbit skin!

PB: That's right. Yeah. It's true. [laughs]

VB: Aw.

PB: Oh, we used to have... [laughs] Oh, yeah, that's right. Yeah, 'cause my brother, my brother could remember that.

VB: A-ah.

PB: My youngest brother.

VB: Were you born round about here or--?

PB: No. I was born eh, in eh, Magdalen Street there, Beaconsfield Road.

VB: Ah!

PB: That's where I lived all my life.

VB: I see.

PB: Yeah. There was four of us. My sister and eh, my brother, oldest brother, me and [David?] And of course, my sister and brother are gone now.

VB: Mhm.

PB: Naturally. And, so there's only us two left. But my oldest brother lived out in Bermuda. And we went out there when I was, in 1974, me and Eric. For a month. It was lovely.

VB: Ah.

PB: If I'd have had enough money I'd have stopped there. It's really lovely out there.

VB: Yeah.

PB: And eh. And then I think they eh, they closed it and then that was all done out again. Years after. Because I can remember eh, me and Eric going there, [pause 2 seconds] to see some film. I'd missed it. So we went on Saturday night. 00:36:00And then that was renamed the Mayfair.

VB: Mhm.

PB: But that was nice inside then. But eh, I can always remember them Saturdays, the Saturday afternoons. [laughs]

VB: Aw.

0PB: 'Cause you had to go, you see. 'Cause they had a serial on. Every week! Like Buck Rogers or, oh, old cowboy films. And it got to an exciting part, [laughs] and that went off until next week. So of course you had to go.

VB: Yeah.

PB: You had to save up your pennies then, to get in. [laughs] Aw dear.

VB: Did your parents go at all to the cinema?

PB: Erm. [pause 2 seconds] Well, Saturday nights when I was with my first fella. We went always to the Haymarket. And we always had four seats there and they were always booked. We always had to [spend?] for. And there was me and Arthur and mum and dad. My dad used to go, like to go because they had an organ then. 00:37:00And that used to come up from the ground. And he loved hearing the music and that. But, of course, when the film went and come on he used to slip...

VB: Aw. [laughs]

PB: [laughs] But at least we knew where he was. And eh, and then of course, that was every Saturday night we went then. Every Saturday night. And three or four times during the week, [pause 2 seconds] to the Regent. To the Electric.

VB: Ah.

PB: I remember all them old cinemas and I think to myself, really, that's a shame, isn't it? You know, there's only got one down Prince of Wales Road [possibly referring to the Norvic Cinema] and one at the Odeon and erm, the, there's one opposite St Andrew's Hall. And eh, that's a private thing, I think there [referring to Cinema City].

VB: Mhm.

PB: So they're the only three there is now about. And then of course you can't. Well, dark nights. I don't go out anywhere. The buses are awkward. You can't, I 00:38:00mean, you can get a bus home sometimes.

VB: Mhm.

PB: So that is difficult, really. But eh, you know, I used to take my knitting sometimes. I did.

VB: [laughs]

PB: I'm talking about after the thirties and that.

VB: Yeah.

PB: And erm, I used to say to the usherette, "Put me near the exit, will you? Where there's a light." I'd say, "'Cause I got my knitting." [laughs]

VB: [laughs]

PB: She'd say, "Knitting?" I'd say, "Yes. Knitting." I'd just sit there, knitting away, looking at the film. [laughs] Why not?

VB: [laughs]

PB: I used to get a [lot done?].

VB: Ah.

PB: And oddly enough, you know, that was a pattern on there and I never used to make a mistake! [laughs] It's amazing. Really.

VB: Yeah. I mean you were saying you liked dancing pictures. Did you go dancing yourself?

PB: No, no. I wish I had've done really. You know. But I think, you know, you miss a lot really. I used to go but not to that extent.

VB: Mhm.

PB: I mean in them days, you know, you really, as kids you weren't allowed to do, go out like that as they are now. Were you?

VB: No.

PB: I mean and then you didn't have all that many dance places to go to. Not really. So, the only thing I was interested in was of course the cinema and the films.

VB: Mhm.

PB: And every month there was a bookshop in... [pause 2 seconds] I don't know if you know Elmhill, do you?

VB: I know where it is. I don't know it very well.

PB: Yeah. Well then they got to sell off a lot of them places down there. Auction them off. Well, in them days, there used to be a bookshop there. And every month these annuals, these books used to come over, these big ones.

VB: A-ah. Yeah.

PB: And I used to go in and I used to get about three or four a month [laughing]. And my mum used to say, "Ah, more books," she used to go. "Film 00:40:00books!" I'd say, "Ye-ah!" I'd say, "They're lovely."

VB: Mhm.

PB: I used to read them all. And of course, then I used to buy the big ones. I got about twelve of them.

VB: Ah, wonderful.

PB: Yeah.

VB: It's great, it's great that you've kept them all that time.

PB: Well, yeah. Because erm, well like I say, they really do come in, you know. Now, especially.

VB: Yeah. It must be nice to have them to refer to as well because--

PB: Well yes.

VB: If there's something on the telly or something.

PB: Yeah.

VB: Great. Charles Boyer.

PB: Oh, yeah. I liked him too.

VB: Yeah.

PB: Yeah. He was nice.

VB: Aw.

PB: Marlene Dietrich.

VB: Ah.

PB: All the old ones.

VB: There's so many here. I don't know where to start.

PB: Yeah. [laughs]

VB: This is great! Gary Cooper as well.

PB: Oh yeah. Oh, Gary Cooper. [laughs] Yeah.

VB: And Norma Shearer again.

PB: Mhm.

VB: Oh, comedy stars!

PB: Yeah.

VB: That's quite interesting.

PB: Yeah. Old comedy stars. You know, British ones. Will Hay and eh--

VB: Cicely Courtneidge.

PB: Cicely Courtneidge. Jack Hulbert and... [pause 2 seconds] Every, you know. Oh yeah. I used to keep all the [laughs] supplements and that.

VB: Jack Buchanan and--

PB: Yeah, yeah. Anna Neagle. Ivor Novello. The, the mu--, you know. He used to make some lovely musicals, didn't he? He did.

VB: Yeah. Maurice Chevalier.

PB: Chevalier, yeah.

VB: Wallace Beery and, oh, I think it's great! [pause 2 seconds] Oh, Leslie Howard and Norma Shearer in Romeo and Juliet.

PB: In Romeo and Juliet, yeah.

VB: Aw-w. What was it about Leslie Howard, d'you think, that made him a star?

PB: I think... [pause 2 seconds] I think that was. He, he was like a gentleman, wasn't he? You know. In his films. Whether he was, I don't know, in private life.

VB: Mhm. I know what you mean though. He certainly has that quality.

PB: Yes, he did. Yeah.

VB: Yeah. And Clark Gable and Jean Harlow again.

PB: Yes.

VB: Love on the Run. Joan Crawford. Clark Gable. Aw.

PB: Yeah. Love on the Run. They made a lot of pictures together, they did. They were always together, you know. Even when--

VB: Here's another one. Forsaking All Others.

PB: Yeah. And eh--

VB: Robert Montgomery.

PB: Robert Montgomery, yeah.

VB: Ooh, Myrna Loy!

PB: Yeah, yeah.

VB: Spencer Tracy. [pause 2 seconds] Norma Shearer again.

PB: Yeah.

VB: Blonde this time.

PB: Oh, yes, yes. In Idiot's Delight. That was made after her husband died.

VB: Ah.

PB: He, he wanted three films to be made and she made them and then she retired.

VB: Mhm. Oh 'Mutiny'--

PB: Mutiny on the Bounty. Yeah, that was good, yeah.

VB: Charles Laughton.

PB: Yeah. I liked that.

VB: Did you like the adventure films then?

PB: Yeah. I like westerns too.

VB: A-ah!

PB: Yeah. John Wayne. [laughs]

VB: Aw.

PB: I think he's great!

VB: What about the earlier ones. Do you like Tom Mix and--

PB: Yeah. Them. I mean when you see them, you used to see them, you know, you'd think to yourself. What was his name? Erm, what was Roy Rogers and [pause 2 seconds] Silver, his horse? Yeah, I think it was. It was a white horse, wasn't it?

VB: Mhm. Yeah.

PB: And who was the other one? They had them on Sunday mornings a long time ago. Eh, [pause 2 seconds] the masked, masked someone. He always used to wear a mask.

VB: Oh, yes.

PB: And eh, he had an Indian with him.

VB: Not, not 'The Lone Ranger'?

PB: Yeah, 'Lone Ranger', yeah.

VB: Yeah. 'Lone Ranger', that's right.

PB: 'Lone Ranger', yeah. [laughs] And erm, every Sunday morning eh, at quarter past eleven they had erm, 'Rawhide' on. Can you remember that? Yeah with erm, eh, [pause 2 seconds] Clint Eastwood. And he took the part of Rowdy, didn't he? You ought to have seen him then to what he is now.

VB: [laughs]

PB: You know.

VB: Yeah.

PB: Yes. I remember Sunday morning, quarter past eleven. [laughs]

VB: That's great. Oh and Gone with the Wind.

PB: Yeah.

[pause 6 seconds]

VB: [inaudible] pictures. Clark Gable again.

PB: Yeah. They're all the stories in them, you know.

VB: Was that an American one?

PB: Yeah, they're American, yeah.

VB: Yeah.

PB: Yeah, I lost some of the covers I had on them. Uh!

VB: It's interesting.

PB: When I go to bed night-time, you see, I have, I eh, go at about half ten and then I read.

VB: Yeah.

PB: I have to read because I never get to sleep.

VB: Yeah.

PB: And eh, if I can get nothing to read then I read all them again. [laughs]

VB: Oh. I'm not surprised. This is from March 1939.

PB: Yeah.

VB: Where did you get the American ones? Were they--

PB: They sent them over from America to England, didn't they? And then, like I say, in that bookshop in Elmhill, they used to sell them, I can't remember how much. They weren't very much to buy, anyway.

VB: Yeah.

PB: But I used to get about three or four at a time.

VB: Are they different from the 'Picturegoer'? 'Cause I've not really seen--

PB: Well they had all like bits in, you know. Sometimes with eh what they do and what they get up to--

VB: Ah.

PB: And all that.

VB: The gossip. Yeah.

PB: And the Stagecoach. Can you remember that? Stagecoach.

VB: Oh, wonderful.

PB: With erm, Claire, Claire someone, wasn't it? Claire--

VB: Claire Trevor.

PB: Yeah, Claire Trevor. Yeah.

VB: Yeah. And John Wayne of course.

PB: And John Wayne. Yeah. I liked old John Wayne. "That'll be the day," he used to go, didn't he?

VB: [laughs] This must have been a good way of keeping up with the films that--

PB: Well, yes.

VB: Were coming out as well.

PB: Yeah, it was, yes.

VB: Yeah. [inaudible; pause 3 seconds]. Oh Madeleine Carroll as well.

PB: Yeah, Madeleine Carroll. She was an English star, wasn't she? She was. Yeah.

VB: She was in The 39 Steps, wasn't she?

PB: Yeah, with Robert Donat. Yeah, yeah.

VB: Was she someone that you liked?

PB: I liked, yeah. I mean I liked them all, really. I mean they were all pretty good, weren't they? I mean, you know, I mean they didn't have, just 'cause I liked them two I just went to see them two. But I used to see them all.

VB: Mhm. Were there any stars that you didn't take to or?

PB: Erm. [pause 2 seconds] No, not really. I liked erm, I liked all the murder mysteries. I [laughs] liked a good horror film. I used to watch them. You know, 00:47:00nothing really used to upset me. Used to say, "I don't know how you look at them." And I used to say, 'Well it's only acting after all, isn't it.'

VB: [laughs]

PB: But erm, no I eh, I liked them all really.

VB: Mhm.

PB: Charles Laughton. He was good, wasn't he?

VB: Aw.

PB: In The Barretts of Wimpole Street. Ooh, he was an old tyrant in that, weren't he? [laughs]

VB: Aw. This is from 1934.

PB: Yeah.

VB: Fredric March as well.

PB: March, yeah.

VB: Oh-h. 'Screenland'. Hedy Lamarr.

PB: Lamarr, yeah. She was, she lovely looking though, weren't she, Hedy Lamarr?

VB: And Ginger Rogers.

PB: Ginger Rogers. Ooh, yeah. She'd dead now, isn't she?

VB: Just recently actually, yeah.

PB: Yeah. And they were doing something, eh, talking about someone and I looked at her and I thought, you couldn't, you couldn't imagine that was her. And when 00:48:00she was, I mean she was blown, bloaty and her hair! Ooh, that was all grey and that was, ooh, I thought to myself. Ginger! I mean, you know.

VB: When you think of what she's like there.

PB: Yeah. Yeah. But there were good together, they were, weren't they, as dancers?

VB: Mhm.

PB: Yeah.

VB: He was supposed to be quite a tough person to work with, wasn't he?

PB: Oh, yeah.

VB: Very demanding.

PB: Some of them, you know, are. Yeah. I mean they had to get all the steps right and they say if she didn't, oh boy!

VB: Yeah.

PB: He was the perfectionist, really. Wasn't he? Yeah. I tell you who is sometimes in these films too. Edward Everett Horton, wasn't he? Aw-w, I used to, I think he was funny, he was. Jack Oakie. Yeah. There's so many. You can't 00:49:00remember them all, can you?

VB: It's amazing, yeah. Gary Cooper.

PB: Yeah. Yeah.

VB: [These are?] great, they really are. And Clark Gable.

PB: Yeah.

VB: Yeah, as you say. Once you start it's difficult to know where to stop.

PB: [laughs] Stop, isn't it? Yes.

VB: Beautiful dresses as well. [inaudible].

PB: Yeah.

VB: Oh, Myrna Loy.

PB: Yeah.

VB: Tyrone Power as well.

PB: Mhm. Yeah. He died young, didn't he? Yeah. I think he died soon after he made eh Marie Antoinette. I think he died soon after that.

VB: Mhm.

PB: Mhm. Yeah.

VB: He must have been very young then 'cause that's--

PB: Well, I mean eh, when her husband died, I mean she was only thirty-something, wasn't she?

VB: Mhm.

PB: And she was very young.

VB: Yeah.

PB: Wasn't she? So. [pause 2 seconds] The house they lived in, you know, they had that built and I think it's in one of them.

VB: Ah.

PB: Have a look and see what one it is. [pause 3 seconds; looks through book] There you are.

VB: Ah!

PB: Now that's their house.

VB: Oh, wow! [laughs]

PB: Look at it.

VB: That's the house I want. It's amazing. [laughs]

PB: That's massive that house.

VB: Aw-w. The furniture and--

PB: Yeah, they had that done. Every bit of that, that studio done that.

VB: That's amazing.

PB: Yeah. Beautiful. [pause 4 seconds] It was right on the ocean, you see, on the--

VB: Absolutely beautiful.

PB: Yeah. Santa Monica, they lived.

VB: Mhm. Even just their dressing room. [inaudible; overtalking].

PB: And their bathroom was all gold and mirrors and that.

VB: Mhm.

PB: And that was all honey, honey-coloured wood and all that.

VB: Did you enjoy the sort of lifestyles you got in the American films?

PB: Oh, yeah, I think that's lovely. Yeah. You know when you see some of them, you think to yourself, phew. Yeah. He was rather a nice looking man I thought.

VB: He was actually, yes.

PB: Yeah. Yeah.

VB: He's got a nice smile, hasn't he?

PB: Yeah, yeah.

VB: It's sort of kind.

PB: The Ghost Train. Can you remember that? [laughs] Jack Hulbert and that.

VB: Oh-h.

PB: Yeah. Oh, I know [inaudible].

VB: Oh right, yes.

PB: Yeah.

VB: These are good though, 'cause they've got a bit of the storyline in them as well.

PB: Yeah, yeah.

VB: Lionel Barrymore.

PB: Mhm. Yeah. [pause 3 seconds] You know when you see some of her old photographs you can't imagine her like that, then.

VB: Not at all.

PB: In them days.

VB: No.

PB: They groomed, they groomed their actresses well, didn't they?

VB: Mhm.

PB: More than what we did, really.

VB: Yeah.

PB: Didn't they?

VB: Very much so. I mean, as you say--

PB: Yeah. Well yeah, you see. The thing is they had the money, didn't they?

VB: Yeah.

PB: Yeah. Would you like a cup of coffee now?

VB: That would be lovely, yes.

PB: With erm, sugar?

VB: No.

PB: No.

VB: Just black, no milk.

PB: Ooh, lor! Oh, you could have a--

VB: Thanks very much.

PB: Made with milk?

VB: Erm--

PB: 'Cause I always have mine made with milk.

VB: With hot milk?

PB: Yeah.

VB: Oh well, I'll take that then. That sounds nice. [laughs] Aw.

[pause 13 seconds]

VB: That's part of the thing 'cause quite a few people I've been talking to were saying they didn't go so much until they started working--

PB: That's right. Yeah.

VB: And they had a bit of money to spare.

PB: That's right. Yeah, yeah.

VB: Yeah. Was that the same for you? Or, do you think you went more when, when you had--

PB: Well I went out to work when I was fourteen.

VB: Mhm.

PB: Like you all did in them days. And I used to go to the cinema. I mean, it didn't cost much to get in then, did it?

VB: Yeah.

PB: I mean now, I mean you go to the cinema and it costs about three or four pound or more than that--

VB: Yeah.

PB: To get in.

VB: Yeah, easily.

PB: See it's a lot of money, isn't it?

VB: Yeah.

PB: And especially if you're on pension money you can't just do it.

VB: 'Course. Yeah.

PB: But erm, yeah, I really, [pause 2 seconds] you know, looked forward to my pictures.

VB: How did you feel when you were there?

PB: Oh, I don't know. I used to think to myself, you know, when you see all the acting and they got all them lovely clothes and that and I would think to myself, "Ooh." And then see sometimes erm, the houses they lived in and all 00:54:00that. And you think to yourself, "Huh! Oh! Wouldn't that be grand," you know. [laughs] To, to, just to see them. And eh, course you could write in them days, couldn't you, to the studios? But I never did.

VB: Mhm.

PB: I never. I did send away for different photographs, you know, and that sort of thing. But I never wrote to the Metro studio.

VB: Yeah.

PB: But you could do in them days.

VB: Did you feel that stars were eh, sort of within reach? Or were they very much way on the screen somewhere?

PB: Yeah. I mean, you know, you thought the, you know, some of them they didn't look comfortable in their acting. Some of them didn't.

VB: Mhm.

PB: When they were acting with a man. I mean, all right, you gotta like someone to. And I mean some of them stars, you know, they're very temperamental, weren't they? I mean they were, they didn't like each other, a lot of them, you know. They really argued a lot. [laughs]

VB: [laughs] Must be a strange sort of lifestyle really. When you say that about the studios telling you how to act and--

PB: Well. I mean in them days, I mean erm, they did act, didn't they? But, today you see some of them and you think to yourself, "However did you get on the screen?" You know, because their acting is nothing. Isn'it? And I mean the actors of today dominate what they want to do, how much they're going to get. Whereas in the old days they just [tape speeds up] whatever pays the rent.

[End of Side B]

[End of Tape One]

[second tape untranscribed; noted as faulty]